Finding Work: How to assess three good options
How to assess three good options. The process of finding meaningful work as an Engineering Manager. Taken from the Insights Library on cord.
cord helps Engineers direct message other people looking to hire them. But finding work isn’t just about access to hiring managers…
Finding your best work is a life’s journey uncovered through an ongoing conversation with ourselves and the world around us.
The Best Work Stories podcast hosts conversations between Ben (Co-founder and CEO of cord) and Founders, CTO’s, Software Engineers and people in tech who are on their own journey to find their best work.
Transcript
Antonio Espinosa (00:00):
If I explain this to my wife, my decision should be easy to understand.
Ben Henley-Smith (00:07):
Maybe a good place to start is, why are you a software engineer?
Antonio Espinosa (00:10):
I guess, because I like coding. It began when I was just seven, eight years old. My father bought a computer and I thought, “Oh, how this machine works? When you press the A, or the S or W, how this machine knows that I press that and print it in the screen?” One thing is what the operating system, how do you manage that machine, but another side is how do you program that in order to do cool things. It’s when I decided to join university to learn that, to learn computer science.
Ben Henley-Smith (00:57):
In the last few years, what’s been the most meaningful project that you’ve worked on to you?
Antonio Espinosa (01:04):
We are doing a product for drivers, to communicate drivers to shippers that want to move something to point A to B. Things that can be optimized. The first one is how to root all of them together. Because one shipper could know, “Okay, I want to move this to one place to another”, but that shipper doesn’t know that they are not a shipper that could get, more or less, very close to that other goods on other place. And then, the driver can get both [inaudible 00:01:39], and instead of have only one, or have that one and another very far away, we can put it on together. All these randomly things in order to optimize the job of that carrier. And that carrier doesn’t know that in real time, so that’s the computing thing can do that from people. And then, the company could get a profit from that optimization and that information.
Antonio Espinosa (02:09):
I have another good project. A very long time ago, I programmed a chip set for broadcasting TV, to the grip team. The conditional asset system from operating in Europe by satellite. And that was very awesome because I was working in a company where we didn’t have the license to code that, so we have to implement clean room implementation of that systems without documentation. So, we have to figure out how that and do a lot of [inaudible 00:02:54] engineer in the [inaudible 00:02:58].
Antonio Espinosa (02:57):
Another one was [Linus 00:03:02] platform, I will say, to small business that doesn’t have any computer engineer contractor in the team. So, it’s just a box. All the windows are connected together to that Linus to share files, to get the emails, to process them the fax, email. Also, to get several connection to internet. Also, to make backups, very simple. Just to change one hard disk to another hard disk, and then you get one, copy to your home, and the next Monday, you will exchange that, and everything moves smoothly. That product was just to make a path of several projects, especially open source ones, together just to make a purpose to someone that doesn’t know what happened in that black box.
Ben Henley-Smith (04:04):
Work in our life is like a conversation in some way.
Antonio Espinosa (04:07):
Yeah.
Ben Henley-Smith (04:07):
And our relationship with work is an ongoing conversation. There comes a moment in that journey where you make big decisions about work and where you decide to allocate that time and where you decide to work. And I wonder, for you, what are the trigger moments that you think have happened in your past where you’ve decided, “Yes, I’m going to do something different”, or “I’m going to work on a different project.” When does that moment come for you?
Antonio Espinosa (04:42):
The main trigger is when I’m start learning. Because one thing that I enjoy so much is when I learned something from my position, or the role that I’m working on. When I joined OnTrac, I wanted to change my background. And instead of continue doing Odoo, changing to do other Python things, for instance, Django. And OnTrac has both of these. They hired me because I was expert on Odoo, not Django, but I wanted to work on Django.
Antonio Espinosa (05:20):
And what I realized there is, “Oh, here, I can also learn to be a manager.” Because they are doing management in a very different way that I never thought that would be possible. They give me the opportunity to be a middle manager and learn how to do that properly, could be a very good tradeoff of this. Okay, I’m still doing Odoo, in return, you’ll teach me how to be a good manager.
Antonio Espinosa (05:50):
Then I realized, “Oh, maybe this trade is not balanced.” Because, I believe, “Oh, my recent manager in OnTrac is going to leave the company, and I will not have that reference more in OnTrac. And the VP of Amenitiz has several similarities. It’s similar to that manager, so maybe I could change that, change them work in order to continue my learning path in a way that I wanted. Maybe now, OnTrac is not going to provide that to me anymore, and that is what’s the trigger for me. Fair enough.
Ben Henley-Smith (06:32):
How did you make your next decision? What was the reasons why you decided to work where you’re about to?
Antonio Espinosa (06:43):
Amenitiz? The next…?
Ben Henley-Smith (06:44):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Antonio Espinosa (06:46):
Yeah. I got three offers. I wait until I have several ones instead of getting the first one.
Ben Henley-Smith (06:56):
And why did you do that?
Antonio Espinosa (07:01):
In order to complete all the processes. Because at the beginning, I thought, “Okay, the first one, just in two weeks, I get the first one.” And I thought, “Yeah. But if I get the first one, I could lose other things, other opportunities. Like, if you are in a train station and you see a train and say, “Okay, where this train will bring me to?” “This place.” Okay. But there are other trains. Not at the same moment, but more or less, in the same hour, or two hours. So, I take the list of the trains and the destination, and try to compare that destination.
Antonio Espinosa (07:42):
And somehow, because you will never know, I start with some notes and keep Google. After that, I create a Trello in order to track all the position. Because for me, it was impossible to retain all the names, and the things that I told, the things that the people told me. And I put some variables. Okay, let’s try to define attributes to compare on, comparing apples with apples. And I put what is their remote policy, for instance, what is the sector, what is the salary range, what is the stack.
Antonio Espinosa (08:25):
And then, I realized that those variables are not very… Are important, but are not the most important. And I took the decision with the people that I get emotional link with. And it was very difficult because these three offers, I got emotional link with them because I did the process individually with them. I was think on joining that company. So, each interview, I go to my Trello, read the things and, okay, if this is the company I want to join, let’s start a meeting. So, some of them, I thought, “No, no. I don’t want to be here.” This person that I interviewed with, no, I don’t think this is not the place for me. So, discard, and this next one.
Antonio Espinosa (09:20):
Just that process, and it was very interesting for me. For instance, in Amenitiz, I got interviewed by product manager and a product designer and was very funny interview. I want to work with these people. I would enjoy so much, and also the position. So, the VP explained to me, “This will be the position you are going to join.” Okay. So, give me the opportunity to talk with the team that I’m going to lead. And I could ask them questions, like, why do you work on Amenitiz? What did you value more? What do you expect from me? If I will join the company, what do you expect from me?
Antonio Espinosa (10:08):
And that was awesome, because I’m going to know, more or less, what they want from a manager, if I will be comfortable or not with that persons, with that team. And that was awesome, too. So, I think, “Oh, this is a good place to work.”
Antonio Espinosa (10:30):
Other one was Cabify, and another one was a very small company, [Wasmer 00:10:34]. So, I have three offers. Very conservative one, Cabify, big company, 250 engineers, very structured company. Amenitiz, 20 engineers. It’s in the way of growing as Cabify. And Wasmer, two engineers.
Antonio Espinosa (10:53):
So, I have to talk about, okay, it’s not a matter of money. More or less, their offer are more or less the same. But even though I hadn’t final numbers of the salary, I thought, Amenitiz’ is the best one. And that was not the first one at the very, very beginning. When the position start, four weeks ago, Amenitiz was not the top one. It was, more or less, the top five. I have another ones. And those another ones will get out, get out because of that, the emotional link. And that is very important in the interview process.
Antonio Espinosa (11:37):
If I go to cord, I see all pictures with people doing parties, instead of coding. It’s not an office photos. And I thought, “Why they put photos of getting lunch and get parties, or outside? That is not the most common thing in the daily basis.” Yes, but it’s the thing that you are linked very easily emotionally.
Antonio Espinosa (12:01):
So, I want to click in the photo because everyone is smiling. All are smiling, so for what? What they are building? What they are doing? Why they are so happy?
Antonio Espinosa (12:14):
I want to be happy, too. It’s emotional thing. It’s not money, it’s satisfaction. It’s recognition. It’s something that you think that you are doing very good things to the world that you could be proud of it. You are going to be joy in the work. You will be motivated every morning because you want to. You will be in a Sunday and say, “Okay. Monday when it is start? Because I want to continue what I stop on Friday.” That kind of thing is the things that moving you. Some people have not experienced that. But once you have experienced that, it is like a drug. you want to continue experience that because it’s awesome to work on something that you are passionate on.
Ben Henley-Smith (12:58):
What made you make that final decision? What was the final…
Antonio Espinosa (13:04):
Well, it was easy because one of the question that I have to answer with myself, if I explain this to my wife, my decisions should be easy to understand. I could not explain to my wife why you choose this because the offers are quite different. So, the most conservative one was almost what my expectation in terms of salary. I mean, it wasn’t exactly my expectation, it’s more or less the middle. And Wasmer, the thing that, they were more aggressive in terms of risky, or… Because it’s a small company, very techy one, it’s going to give me the opportunity to move very far away from my comfort zone, but the offer, it was very low. So, they are paying you less, and they are not giving you some certainty. So, why do you choose that? It’s the worst.
Antonio Espinosa (14:05):
And it was Amenitiz that… And it was easy because it’s the best offer, also. So, it’s very good to explain to my wife; “The best offer.” The conflict is not there. Because Wasmer was the last offer, and I thought, maybe Wasmer will be higher. So, if it is higher, it will be difficult for me to say how do I compare my emotional link with Amenitiz and say no to Wasmer. They’re paying me more, how I explain that to my wife? But it was not the case, so it was a relief for me. I say, Okay, good. Amenitiz [inaudible 00:14:49].
Ben Henley-Smith (14:49):
Other than explaining the situation to your wife, what other final bits of things are worth sharing when you go through this process that others might benefit from?
Antonio Espinosa (15:04):
From my point of view, when the market is something that is balanced, when the employee and the employee are more or less balanced, because of the demand and the offer is balanced, now, computer engineers are princes, a little bit, because we are few and there are a lot of demand of people like us. But for me, recommendation, and how I can imagine would be my first day, and how the employer imagine how would be my value given to the company. This is the more important trigger of the attribute, too. And it’s very difficult who objectize that. It’s very subjective. So, for me, recommendations are very important because if I talk with a recruiter about Amenitiz, and the recruiter told me, “Oh, it’s a good company.” And I’m look to know people that I’m working on that company, or people that knows other ones and I could talk with engineer managers at Spotify, for instance, or Busuu, because our friend of my brother, or in [inaudible 00:16:22]. I know another engineer manager working on that because that engineer manager working OnTrac, too.
Antonio Espinosa (16:26):
If someone recommend to me that position, I join the process. If someone one doesn’t recommend to me, I will not. If I don’t have recommendation, I try to find them, to find signal in the website. I know that all the job position always say the good things and not the bad things. That’s why I wanted to talk with people. If I read some recommendation from people to join or not to join a company in a structural way, and it’s difficult because no one wants to have negative recommendations, only positive ones.
Antonio Espinosa (17:07):
And so, it’s delicate, but that is, for me… And that is the good thing that I have found in cord. I discover cord very late in my process when I already have 10 positions. So, I couldn’t get more. But it is a tool that maybe I could recommend to other ones in the future. Because for me, it’s a good source because of this, the invitation link. If I can only invite people that I value and are inside, are working in the clan, so the information there are great, are not like lingering when you say, “Okay, I want to work on engineer manager.” And the first 10 position are consultancies. So, please don’t spam me. I don’t want that.
Ben Henley-Smith (18:03):
Yeah. Thank you so much, Antonio, for sharing your story. It’s wonderful to hear it, and I’ve taken a lot from it, so thank you.
Antonio Espinosa (18:17):
You’re welcome. It’s very good to… If it’s valuable for you, and you could get better insight from my opinion, it’s good for me to collaborate. I’m very happy.
Ben Henley-Smith (18:35):
I loved it.
